What must I do to be Saved?

Bible Debate - The Rapture

Debate is taking place at various forums, and ARCHIVED here for further study. The last entry was made in 1998.

Pre-tribulation:   The "church" is raptured before the 7 year tribulation period.
Mid-tribulation:  Rapture occurs at the halfway mark, or 3 1/2 years.
           (at that time anti-christ reveals his true nature, and breaks the peace)
Post-tribulation:  Rapture occurs at the end of the 7 year Great Tribulation.


1. Man to Jerrie 10.14.98

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." Revelation 3:10

My position, pre-tribulation, is partly taken from this above verse, and the words [keep thee FROM] meaning just that, and not THROUGH.

 
2. Jerrie's response to Man 10.14.98

Oh I have no doubt we will be kept from the tribulation but I think here on earth we will be kept from it. I think it will be] going on all around us and we will be under his mighty protection' There are a lot of scriptures that make me think this. I studied this thoroughly some years ago but have been into prayer for the last say five years.
Spiritual warfare according to Eph. 6.* I'd have to do some digging again to get back into the subject matter but I value the conversastion. Do keep it coming as you say.

 
3. Man to Jerrie 10.14.98
The Holy Spirit will leave before the anti-christ is revealed.       "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,shewing himself that he is God.
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not> the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." Timothy 2:1-12      "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. ***That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. *** Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; *** Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. *** Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? *** And now ye know what holdeth that he might be revealed in his time. *** For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now letteth will let, until he [the Holy Spirit] be taken out of the way. *** And THEN shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. *** Even him, [antichrist], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders., ***
Thess. 2:1 & ff

Sends chills up my spine. What a time for Christians and what a time for those who have said NO to God's plan of redemption.

Maranatha!

*NOTE: Is this the portion of Ephesians you refer to Jerrie?
[Eph:6:11-13 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand."


4. Jerrie to Man 10.14.98

This is one of my main scriptures to support my veiwpoint.
Pre-tribulation rapture theology uses the scripture he who now letteth will let til he be taken out of the way to mean the Holy Spirit leaves therefore the Christians have to be gone. But it is a misunderstanding of the text and you need to go to the original greek to understand it correctly. The better translation is there is one who holds fast. This scripture is speaking of Satan or the antichrist who is taken out of the way at Christ's coming or probably Satan who at the mid tribulation point loses his position in the heavenlies Rev. 12: 7-9* The whole passage makes so much more sense when seen is revealed.

*   "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."Rev 12:7-9

5. Man to Jerrie 10.15.98 Paragraph #2 - makes little sense. "antichrist is taken out of the way at Christ's coming": His first or second coming?
1/ He comes to take His Church.
2/ He comes to reign with His Church.
Per antichrist having a place in heaven and having a place "in the heavenlies" - two [2] different places:
1/ heaven - Satan has access there to accuse the brethren. He does NOT have "a PLACE there." He was pitched out LONG ago.
2/ heavenlies - the places in beteeen heaven & earth where Satan roams and sends his "angels" out to their assignments. Satan can be in only one place at one time. His little demons go do Satan's dirty work at his bidding.

"Vs 3-"; Say what?
A note on 2/ above: Satan goes about as a restless being - flying over cities, places, etc. Prayer is the answer. Joint prayer. To correct my term "interceeding" to "takes our groanings which cannot be uttered and 'translates' them before the Father".

Jesus does the interceeding. John 17. Jesus' High Priestly prayer. Jesus doesn't take back His gifts: Joy. Peace. [my peace I leave with you]. The Holy Spirit. 'I will send my spirit - He will guide you in to all truth.'

The Holy Spirit can't leave before us - that would be like Jesus taking back one of His prize gifts.

6. Posted by Jerrie Hewlett on Friday, 16 October 1998, at 6:04 p.m. Man I have put up two posts to you and they haven't shown up and that was two hours ago. So I don't know if you'll get this or you have gotten them and it is just my system or what. George is havng some problems too I see. And I don' know if I will be getting your posts. Oh well! I went into some details in my posts so I hope you got them. The Jewish people studied their prophetic scriptures and were convinced that their Messiah would set up an earthly kingdom. When Jesus didn't do that they rejected him. No old testament prophesy suggested there would be two comings of the Messiah so they had everything figured wrong. It was their dependance on their ability to figure out everything that messed them up. I believe we should be very familiar with the prophetic scriptures but be very cautious about our interpretations. We might find ourselves similarly wrong.


7. Posted by Jerrie Hewlett on Sunday, 18 October 1998, at 6:40 p.m.
A lot of interesting comments on this post. I can't follow them. I will quote a scripture.

I Cor. 1:19 - For it is written I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent, and also the verse preceeding verse 18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness

With that in mind and the sure knowledge our limited human mental ability will never get it right I will answer your post a little.

Yes the Jews had the scriptures of the Old Testament that spoke of the Messiah coming to set up His earthy kingdom and the scritures of the Messiah's suffering. How do they recognicile this. No prophecy of the Old Testament gave any indication that there would be two comings of the Messiah. So easy from our prespective but they had no clue. Look at Acts one. The disciples are still expecting Jesus to set up that earthy kingdom.

Now relate this to our trying to figure out how the end time scenario will work itself out. It will all happen but how it happens is just guess work. I think we will find out we were wrong about a lot of things. A spiritual man I knew calls himself a pan-tribulationist. It's all going to pan out in the end. Our trust and faith needs to be in Jesus and Jesus alone and not in any theory.

8. Posted by Man on Sunday, 18 October 1998, at 7:52 p.m.

I'm not sure I understand why the Jews would have to KNOW about a second coming. Within the scriptures I sent, the lowly birth is disclosed, as well as the end result of that birth.

Regarding not knowing everything, you are right...
"we see as through a glass darkly... " etc.

However, in the book of Revelation, we are entreated to read about the end times. The Bible also tells us that no man "knoweth the day or the hour" but that we will know when it is nigh, even at the door. So, that's why I study Revelation, in conjunction with the Old Testament book of Daniel [which is all the Jews needed for knowledge of the end times], and I trust the Holy Spirit to lead me into knowledge. After all, if one studies the endtime prophesy, when it is happening all around as it is NOW, it is SO recognizable.

9. Posted by Jerrie Hewlett on Sunday, 18 October 1998, at 7:30 p.m.

The scripture in Lk 17: 34 - 37 commonly regarded as a rapture scripture is not talking about a rapture at all but a totally seperate event. Start reading from verse 22 and you see this is talking about an event taking people to destruction Look at vs 37. Figure that out and you have solved the puzzle. This event is probably the invading armies confiscating one person and leaving one behind.

Now that leaves only two scriptures that specifically refer to the rapture. II Thes 2 and I Cor. 15: 52

Verse three of Thes says that day will not happen until after the man of sin is revealed. When is he revealed - when he sets himself up as God in the temple at the mid-trib point. Cor says at the last trumpet. And when does that occur in Rev. Certainly not before the mid-trib point. Now any other scripture used to supprt a pre-trib theory may sound good but it can't stand the test of these point blank scriptures and they are the only ones specifically talking about the rapture. How can I conclude any other thing scripturally speaking. Pre-trib arguments are not Biblically sound. They are just hopeful thinking. Why can't we just trust in God's abiliy to deliver us here on earth if that's what the scripture says. And it does. Oh ye of little faith

10. Posted by Man on Sunday, 18 October 1998, at 8:13 p.m.

You've said a mouthful there. Will take a little time to sort out the many references you make. I want you to know, however, that I am willing and able to take whatever God's Will is regarding His return. Don't want you to think otherwise.

If, in preparing for when "governments shall be in distress", I lay away items that will be useful to get through those times, and am not here to need them.... at least there will be others who will benefit. So you see, I am not blind to what is to come and the possibility that we ALL will see VERY hard times.

In the Love of Jesus,    Maranatha!

11. The following to Jerrie is from czc, not a member of the forum:

My stance remains, "Be ready."

Luke 17 is a 'last days' passage, agreed. no one ever said it was a rapture passage.

John Did not have one huge vision, but several within what Jesus was showing him at the time on Patmos.

No comment (without study) on the 'only 2 scriptures (in NT) that refer to the rapture.

CHANGED MY MIND. Acts 1:11 comes to mind.

I think Jerrie would benefit from getting to a calmer position when studying the end times. No matter what SHE or WE think about these things they will occur anyway - in God's way and in His time. Yes? Be ready.   czc


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